Brazil Flight Information!!

[lagarto]

Originally Posted by JMBroad

Hi Lagarto - did we just spend a day together in Fortaleza?

Btw although the thread started out discussing only international flights, we then moved on to discuss domestic flights too, hence Rob's discussion.

Oh and Dotty said that they "didn't go to Natal"? I just said I was on a flight from Fortaleza to Natal last week and the flight was full and there were only two "gringos" on the flight so your quip of "They have definately not passed Natal that's for sure." was basically saying I'm lying or blind?

I don't think we have met as I don't stay in Fortaleza although I do spend some time there. I don't know who you are so I can't say for sure.

As for the quote about passing Natal ...I think we were on different stories with that one...no offense meant...I don't even think it was me that wrote that....in fact having checked it was Dotty no me...i feel a little better now....

[Dotty]

Mr Broad,

Of course flights stop in Natal.I do believe there's an airport there that i use ,whether it's full is another matter!

[Golfingworld]

I stand corrected. Fortaleza received 50k more international arrivals than Natal in 2007.

268k vs 219k Jan to Dec 2007

However, again, considering the size of each city and airport, one would expect it to be much higher. Domestic arrivals for example is a huge difference; 3.3 million vs 1.4 million

I don't believe these figures for a moment...something not right here...just do the simple maths. Firstly we know that only international flight into Natal is TAP I think 4 times weekly...but let's be generous and say 6 times weekly x 52 weeks x 325 on a full A310 Airbus = 101400 Thomson = 24 x 300 on B767 if full = 7200 Assume Arkfly 52 weeks 14400 lets say other charters all full 5 flights per week x 6 months x 300 = 36000 lets 3 3 charters per week for a year full 46800 and I am exaggerating all the flights here as the frequencies and numbers and loading are all very generous. Tha'ts just over 200k..I am almost certain thesefigures are tweaked and inaccurate and are there to paint a picture for someone's agenda. And, even if they are correct...do you realise how small these numbers are in the frame of things related to tourism? They would not justify opening a Post Office in Cornwall let alone major developments.....plus Real Tourist come on Charter flights not TAP and as they are the bulk of "Int Arrivals" there is absolutely no evidence that these TAP number (50% roughly) are a) proper tourists b) even remaining in Natal as many are returning Residents and many are "in transit to other places" I have met Paulista on the Thomson flight and people going to Rio on the TAP flights into Natal.....the reality is that Natal tourism is minute on the gloabal scale, it is well down in 08 and 17 checkin desks is quite sufficient for their traffic....the problem arises in natal if there is one is that it is clearly a very badly run airport particularly security passport (in out) and in bound baggage..check in is actually excellent and in my experience smaller airports often do this better than larger ones. Again Agendas are being justified thru false analysis of the data in fact amateur analysis! A good example of this is that the primary "foreign tourist" season is actually Sept/April in other words over two years i.e 06/07 and maybe some increase in Jly/August but winter is the key...these quote figures run calender year....but tour opeartor seasons run winter/summer so in effect you are not comparing "like with like" and interpretation of what I see as probably false data anyway is more distorted as numbers should in fact be looked at winter and summer i.e Nov06-end April 07 You also have to consider when Easter falls. Reality is that I would bet my life on over 50% of all natal real "international tourist arrivals" falls in 3 months Dec 18 to March 18 ish and as TAP are more than 50% of the quoted numbers at least 50% of their arrivals are "not tourists remaining in Natal area". So in reality real tourists into Natal are more than likely 80000 max and of those 40000 arrived in three months, maybe 4 (Dec/April)....more people went to The North Pole last year..or certainly to see Santa Claus in Finland! This my friends is what a major property boom was based on and would you want to rent out your Brazil property for "holiday lets" in a market where proably 50% or clients arrive in three month period 20% in 2 months (July/Aug) so in effect of the potential clients, the remaining 20% (20000) arrive in 7 months or 666 per week over 30 weeks......now can yo u understand why you can pick up a rental "for a song" and not forgetting that we are in a declining market (Loss Thomson/Increase airfares TAP etc etc)....the claims do not stack up and that is why rental guarantees will be in serious trouble in a few years time and the associated consequences....but there again what are my analyses and forecasts worth as I have nothing to gain in natal!

[lagarto]

I also have nothing to gain in Natal.
As for a declining market...well I think the figures are misleading. You are concentrating on international tourists with your statistics for apt rental when indeed a huge percentage of tourism is Brazilians from the south with Fortaleza set as the prime "want to visit" location for these. From what I have seen with "my feet firmly on the ground" is an increase in tourism and investment in all areas...and there are many other flights arriving that come form Holland, Norway Italy etc. which are not TAP.
The winter months are not necessarily the key times just because it gets a little chilly in the UK....try living in Norway. There are key high seasons for sure but this by no means has any influence from the Uk as the numbers are so small. Try Carnaval, Fortal, Escargo..Taiba, Kitesurf season -- Huge, São João, etc etc. I think we have more tourism than your proverbial "post office in Cornwall"...hardly a comparison.

[Blc]

Originally Posted by Dotty

Why is it that there is so much nit picking on here ?! People get so ratty because of differences in opinion.I think visiting a country and living in a country is totally has a different perspective to those that live and breath a country know far more about a place than somebody that visits it because they fancy going on holiday and then maybe buying a place overseas.

I do not think Golfingworld talks crap the same way I do nt talk crap.I know my long term experiences here because I am here and have been for yrs ,people feel offended because they care not to hear the truth and create a facade of fantasy around them
of boom,boom and more boom,well there is nt a boom in Natal at the moment,but there may be in other parts of Brasil,because it s too bloody awkward to get to and costly.

Boom in Fortaleza that for sure.
Beach Palce By Mota Mocahada 225 untis close to beach park sold out in 16 hrs a record in Ceara sold to Brazilians, check this by looking it up on google.

Atlantis Beira mar by Marquise
250 units prices from 400.000 Brl to 1.000.000 brl
on sale at 10.am sold out 4 pm same day the 3 brazilians in front of me must of got there at 7am i arrived at 8 am. They purchased 40% of the units.

Onother project by Mota Mochada in the Fatima district sold out before 12 on the same day.

The next one is Beach Place 15h July i will let you know what happens.

I live and work in Fortaleza and this weekend is packed with tourist from all over Brazil.

The domestic market is strong and all that matters.

[Dotty]

Golfingworld,

It has been a terrible yr for Natal as confirmed in yesterdays newspapers.They said that the foreigner prefers to go to Italy and Portugual because o the weak dollar makes it more favourable,not that it's a rip off coming here or has poor infrastrcture and services...............Foreigners are not dumb!They had a photo of a few tourists with there lifejackets on getting ready to see the dolphins,not sure if Rob was there saying it's booming in Pipa and I notice Mr Broad is not mentioning too much either about his trip to Natal um...............

Originally Posted by Golfingworld

I stand corrected. Fortaleza received 50k more international arrivals than Natal in 2007.

268k vs 219k Jan to Dec 2007

However, again, considering the size of each city and airport, one would expect it to be much higher. Domestic arrivals for example is a huge difference; 3.3 million vs 1.4 million

I don't believe these figures for a moment...something not right here...just do the simple maths. Firstly we know that only international flight into Natal is TAP I think 4 times weekly...but let's be generous and say 6 times weekly x 52 weeks x 325 on a full A310 Airbus = 101400 Thomson = 24 x 300 on B767 if full = 7200 Assume Arkfly 52 weeks 14400 lets say other charters all full 5 flights per week x 6 months x 300 = 36000 lets 3 3 charters per week for a year full 46800 and I am exaggerating all the flights here as the frequencies and numbers and loading are all very generous. Tha'ts just over 200k..I am almost certain thesefigures are tweaked and inaccurate and are there to paint a picture for someone's agenda. And, even if they are correct...do you realise how small these numbers are in the frame of things related to tourism? They would not justify opening a Post Office in Cornwall let alone major developments.....plus Real Tourist come on Charter flights not TAP and as they are the bulk of "Int Arrivals" there is absolutely no evidence that these TAP number (50% roughly) are a) proper tourists b) even remaining in Natal as many are returning Residents and many are "in transit to other places" I have met Paulista on the Thomson flight and people going to Rio on the TAP flights into Natal.....the reality is that Natal tourism is minute on the gloabal scale, it is well down in 08 and 17 checkin desks is quite sufficient for their traffic....the problem arises in natal if there is one is that it is clearly a very badly run airport particularly security passport (in out) and in bound baggage..check in is actually excellent and in my experience smaller airports often do this better than larger ones. Again Agendas are being justified thru false analysis of the data in fact amateur analysis! A good example of this is that the primary "foreign tourist" season is actually Sept/April in other words over two years i.e 06/07 and maybe some increase in Jly/August but winter is the key...these quote figures run calender year....but tour opeartor seasons run winter/summer so in effect you are not comparing "like with like" and interpretation of what I see as probably false data anyway is more distorted as numbers should in fact be looked at winter and summer i.e Nov06-end April 07 You also have to consider when Easter falls. Reality is that I would bet my life on over 50% of all natal real "international tourist arrivals" falls in 3 months Dec 18 to March 18 ish and as TAP are more than 50% of the quoted numbers at least 50% of their arrivals are "not tourists remaining in Natal area". So in reality real tourists into Natal are more than likely 80000 max and of those 40000 arrived in three months, maybe 4 (Dec/April)....more people went to The North Pole last year..or certainly to see Santa Claus in Finland! This my friends is what a major property boom was based on and would you want to rent out your Brazil property for "holiday lets" in a market where proably 50% or clients arrive in three month period 20% in 2 months (July/Aug) so in effect of the potential clients, the remaining 20% (20000) arrive in 7 months or 666 per week over 30 weeks......now can yo u understand why you can pick up a rental "for a song" and not forgetting that we are in a declining market (Loss Thomson/Increase airfares TAP etc etc)....the claims do not stack up and that is why rental guarantees will be in serious trouble in a few years time and the associated consequences....but there again what are my analyses and forecasts worth as I have nothing to gain in natal!

[Dotty]

That's great!There is plenty to do in Forteleza and I think it has the best beaches in the North East too! Pity it's not booming in Jericoacoara right now and they have had a terrible yr to date.

Originally Posted by Blc

Boom in Fortaleza that for sure.
Beach Palce By Mota Mocahada 225 untis close to beach park sold out in 16 hrs a record in Ceara sold to Brazilians, check this by looking it up on google.

Atlantis Beira mar by Marquise
250 units prices from 400.000 Brl to 1.000.000 brl
on sale at 10.am sold out 4 pm same day the 3 brazilians in front of me must of got there at 7am i arrived at 8 am. They purchased 40% of the units.

Onother project by Mota Mochada in the Fatima district sold out before 12 on the same day.

The next one is Beach Place 15h July i will let you know what happens.

I live and work in Fortaleza and this weekend is packed with tourist from all over Brazil.

The domestic market is strong and all that matters.

[robh]

Originally Posted by lagarto

International trafic is the subject here not national flights. Please quote the amounts when you publish the information and not percentages. Fortaleza has, by a long way...many more tourists.

The figures are available here.

As John has said 267k for 2007 in forteleza vs. 218k for 2007 in Natal for international passengers.

Natal has had an increase of 30k in domestic passengers for Jan 2008 over Jan 2007 which is the peak period for both international and domestic travel.

Forteleza was down by 26k in domestic passengers in Jan 2008 from Jan 2007.

[robh]

Flight restrictions lifted : Brazil Property News

[Blc]

Originally Posted by Dotty

That's great!There is plenty to do in Forteleza and I think it has the best beaches in the North East too! Pity it's not booming in Jericoacoara right now and they have had a terrible yr to date.

Jerri is a great place to spend the weekend the problem is the distance and the fact you need a 4x4 to enjoy its beauty/ Lagoa Azul fantastic day out.

Build restricions are controlled so no mega resorts ,altough there are a few projects one complete the other under construction by a brit that are selling well and good quality / Hatts off to him cant remember his name

I was there in March great restaurants/shops/posadas

Lets see what July brings ,Jerri is a must for any visitor / Hotel Mosquito Blu

I think Aquiraz mega resort with golf and 8 / 5* hotels under construction -golf and 1st hotel Dom Pedro opens december 2007 along with new mall will put Fortaleza on the map .

I would like to stress that the mega resort is not just talk like many golf courses that are promised, they have spent 54 mil reais on works to date including the golf course and this is before they have tried to sell anything to the public.

Im told on the ground here that the super large mega resort in Mundua with 27
5* hotels is back on and should be made public soon. They had some problems in the past with Indians claiming ownership ect.

Like you said Dotty Ceara has the best beaches and my prediction is in the next few years with the help of Aquiraz Resort will be in pole position.

Cyrela/Gafisa/Rossi have arrived in Fortaleza watch them change the face of Praia
Futuro with more than 30 projects planned. They are also moving in to Beach Park.