Brazil Flight Information!!

[robh]

Originally Posted by Golfingworld

There are a number of key issues mentioned above..the first is the flights from Cabo Verde....this is very important as it creates a "hub" halfway across the Atlantic. It is a pity that TACV have such a poor reputation but the issue here is that there is a Hub to NE brazil which is probablyonly 3.5 hours away. This is highly significant as CV is also outside the EU so the one way and entry qualifications for Brazilians would probably not be so stringent. What you now needs is for some bright spark from the EU to link up to North Europe. I would say CV are very clever if they develop this route as they make CV a stop over point for mid Atlantic traffic a sortof mini Dubai or Qatar. If TACV are really clever they'll increase schedules to Lisbon or Madrid as well and then Brazilians only need a return ticket from CV to get in!

Thomson..there's a lot of speculation here...the reality is that if they really wanted one more slot to natal they should have got it no problem....I think it would be highly unlikely that there was no capacity in Natal or lack of hotel rooms...my guess is that TAP muscled in and said if you allow this, we will pull out. Why because they are a junk old fashioned state run airline that depends on old fashioned methods to stay in business, which means high prices. Anyone who uses TAP knows that the staff can't workout if passengers are their for the Staff's convenience or the other way round. TAP have significant muscle in brazil as at present they are Brazil's only "National" airline with International routes. This goes back to Brazil's middle age attitude to airline business and ptotectionism..they have been so good at protecting their airline business that Varig have been bust many times and nobody else flies there apart from Rio/SP. In the meantime, Thomson have re-branded certain long haul places under 1st Choice, understanable as they were better than Thomson, certaily their airline. Plus, the 787 is now over a year late and at current costs Thomson and/or 1st Choice need it to do long haul destinations. I would doubt that Thomson made much money in Natal with limited capacity and lack of decent excursions ad I would doubt they will be back soon....face it guys..the Natal dream is what it is, a dream...long runway or new airport is irrelevant until Brazil understands tourism and air traffic.

GW,

One problem with your theory about TAP not allowing Thomson to have two flights into Natal is that First choice asked for and got 2 flights into Salvador, another TAP destination, before they cancelled Natal.

I prefer the explanation of incompetence of Natal airport's management, it is much simpler and more likely.

Rob.

[Golfingworld]

First Choice have had 2 slots into Salvador for 2 years so this is irrelevant and it is a completely different place to natal. None of these airports in NE Brazil are at capacity, nowhere near and anyone who believes so is living in cloud cuckoo land. I have seen Salvador/Recife ad natal and all of them can cope with more flights. This is all about protectionism and pricing, something you guys in property don't understand as you have worked on false pricing for years. I think it is simple, Thomson might have asked for two flights per week and I doubt it was rejected, but they were asked to ensure that non package tourists had their flight prices kept as high as those marketed by TAP. I would guess Thomson would not give those guarantees and on the basis that Brazil is a protectionist economy pressure was brought to inhibit Thomson's extra flight. TAP have new routes like Brasilia/Belo Horizonte and they have probably agreed to run these routes provided their revenues are not pressured. If you look at TAP offers, Natal is rarely included as it is a route where they maintainmaximum prices and they can only do this is capacity is restricted. Capacity is another thing that Property Dealers dont understand...just look at Spain!

[robh]

Originally Posted by Golfingworld

First Choice have had 2 slots into Salvador for 2 years so this is irrelevant and it is a completely different place to natal. None of these airports in NE Brazil are at capacity, nowhere near and anyone who believes so is living in cloud cuckoo land. I have seen Salvador/Recife ad natal and all of them can cope with more flights. This is all about protectionism and pricing, something you guys in property don't understand as you have worked on false pricing for years. I think it is simple, Thomson might have asked for two flights per week and I doubt it was rejected, but they were asked to ensure that non package tourists had their flight prices kept as high as those marketed by TAP. I would guess Thomson would not give those guarantees and on the basis that Brazil is a protectionist economy pressure was brought to inhibit Thomson's extra flight. TAP have new routes like Brasilia/Belo Horizonte and they have probably agreed to run these routes provided their revenues are not pressured. If you look at TAP offers, Natal is rarely included as it is a route where they maintainmaximum prices and they can only do this is capacity is restricted. Capacity is another thing that Property Dealers dont understand...just look at Spain!

GW,

It's good to see your back to your ranting self with your elaborate theories, but I will stick to the simple explanation. I should have said that Thomson asked for an extra flight into Salvador, not a second flight.

BTW, when are you back in Natal and is your apartment ready yet?

[JMBroad]

Originally Posted by Golfingworld

None of these airports in NE Brazil are at capacity, nowhere near and anyone who believes so is living in cloud cuckoo land. I have seen Salvador/Recife ad natal and all of them can cope with more flights.

Well seeing as you have told us that your experience of airports is as a passenger the same as the rest of us aside from selling beverages to the airports bars and restaurants, I don't think we can consider your "I've seen them" approach. I've seen them too and despite being a well travelled person, I personally have to admit that I can't judge the capacity of an airport by transiting through it as a passenger a couple of times.

So I'm assuming you have some evidence which disproves the facts and figures stated on the goverments managing company's official website which states that they are all running at over 100% capacity? Please share it with us.

Once again, if you are intent on making a claim, please back it up with a shred of factual evidence. Otherwise you may be branded as "hype" which you are so intent on avoiding.

[debzor]

You can use statistics to say anything you want, and make them appear to prove your argument.

In the case of airport capacity, what actually is the limiting factor that determines the existing capacity, and can that capacity be increased?

Is it the number of aircraft that can take off, land, park, be serviced? Or the number that air traffic control can (supposedly) safely handle? Or bagage handlers, passport control officers, firemen, customs, check in desks, arrival halls, departure lounges, toilet facilities, security, space, car parking, restaurants, cambios, etc, etc.

I think we can all agree that, while the Infraero figures indicate capacity in the NE, all of our experiences indicate that there is plenty of room at all these airports, with many quiet periods.

Thus we need to determine what Infraero mean by capacity. I have always suggested it is more to do with safety than anything else, and this should be easy to rectify and thus increase said capacity.

[Graymax]

well said and well structured argument Debzor, if other people tried to reason things out, instead of going off half cocked and accusing people of living in cuckoo land, this forum would be a far more informative, and adult place to find things out that such people as myself, and others who have bought in RGN could go to when in need of info,but unfortunately there are always some, who just want to knock RGN, irrespective of what others say, don,t you GW.

[JMBroad]

Mostly agree with you Debzor, but that's my point exactly. Safety may not be so easy to adjust to increase capacity for example - don't forget that mostly you need to comply with regulatory requirements of health and hygiene, fire department, border control, police, etc not just a few more guards and x-ray machines.

We don't know what is the definition of Maximum capacity of an international airport therefore we aren't in a position to judge if the airport is at maximum capacity or not.

However having worked in Hotel management for many years, I can tell you that while you walk around the lobby and it seems nice and calm, all hell might be breaking loose behind the curtains because of a banqueting event happening on another floor which no one in the lobby can see. Most guests in the lobby might wonder why the reception staff look stressed and wouldn't link it to the event on the third floor because they don't know it exists.

The same thing can be compared to an airport. While the public areas may look fine and much below capacity who knows what's going on with the waste removal area, the cargo hold area, the sewage facilities, etc, etc, etc

All we do know for sure is that the public areas appear quiet but the administration is saying that the airports are operating way beyond their capacity. And unfortunately until we have anything to back up our opinion, whether we agree with them or not, we can't claim that the administration "is living in cloud cuckoo land" without having a shred of evidence to back that up.

[markland]

Originally Posted by robh

GW,

One problem with your theory about TAP not allowing Thomson to have two flights into Natal is that First choice asked for and got 2 flights into Salvador, another TAP destination, before they cancelled Natal.

I prefer the explanation of incompetence of Natal airport's management, it is much simpler and more likely.

Rob.

Last year, feb07, accidently met Thomson Natal manager, at the airport, and we were talking about increasing flights at Natal, expanding holiday’s destinations, for instance advertising the state of Paraiba, where I am based.
As per her information, on that time, Thomson was willing to cancel even the only flight they have with destination NATAL, and they were keener to get Salvador, due to the fact of the low services performance and disorganization of Hotels at Natal, which was causing several claims from their clients.

And beside of that, there was also an increase values from Natal airport. So even we spoke about ... why not to make a trial experience with João Pessoa airport during a certain period?

So I do not think that TAP would be involved with this.

[robh]

Originally Posted by markland

Last year, feb07, accidently met Thomson Natal manager, at the airport, and we were talking about increasing flights at Natal, expanding holiday’s destinations, for instance advertising the state of Paraiba, where I am based.
As per her information, on that time, Thomson was willing to cancel even the only flight they have with destination NATAL, and they were keener to get Salvador, due to the fact of the low services performance and disorganization of Hotels at Natal, which was causing several claims from their clients.

And beside of that, there was also an increase values from Natal airport. So even we spoke about ... why not to make a trial experience with João Pessoa airport during a certain period?

So I do not think that TAP would be involved with this.

If hotels are the reason that Thomson doesn't fly, then I wonder why Tui, the parent co., still flies to Natal?

I like João Pessoa, but I think it needs a few more international standard hotels before charters will go there.

[debzor]

Originally Posted by markland

Last year, feb07, accidently met Thomson Natal manager, at the airport, and we were talking about increasing flights at Natal, expanding holiday’s destinations, for instance advertising the state of Paraiba, where I am based.
As per her information, on that time, Thomson was willing to cancel even the only flight they have with destination NATAL, and they were keener to get Salvador, due to the fact of the low services performance and disorganization of Hotels at Natal, which was causing several claims from their clients.

And beside of that, there was also an increase values from Natal airport. So even we spoke about ... why not to make a trial experience with João Pessoa airport during a certain period?

So I do not think that TAP would be involved with this.

Surely the big difference between Natal and Salvador, is that in Salvador Thomson/First Choice (the same company now), own their own resort destination and thus keep 100% of profits made. whereas in Natal they do not, and thus cannot...