A Couple "Musts" and "MustNots" When Investing In Brazil

[deedee1]

Hi all,

Sorry just re-read it it does clearly say that the agreed price is **** in euros- to be paid in reals to the brazil ****** registered company on bill of sale!!

Take care-D

[RalphJ]

I have friends at Banco Central and Receipta Federal in Recife. I will call a guy I know on Monday at Banco Central and confirm if a company or representative of an individual can send funds for that individual.

I think I already know what their answer will be although.

[deedee1]

Hi ralph,

From what I can make out as they have a registered company in brazil then we will be making transfers from the uk to brazil in reals??

If this is the case then all should be OK??

Then the next hurddle is to get a company in the uk to transfer payments to brazil for us in reals?? So I pressume someone like, money corp or similar should be able to do this??

Also if this is the case then if the real is dropping then maybe it will be best to secure a good rate with them know once I know for sure??

Take care-D

[RalphJ]

Originally Posted by deedee1

Hi ralph,

From what I can make out as they have a registered company in brazil then we will be making transfers from the uk to brazil in reals??

If this is the case then all should be OK??

Then the next hurddle is to get a company in the uk to transfer payments to brazil for us in reals?? So I pressume someone like, money corp or similar should be able to do this??

Also if this is the case then if the real is dropping then maybe it will be best to secure a good rate with them know once I know for sure??

Take care-D

dee....as I've stated previously, what one wants to do is transfer their money to brazil via THEIR OWN BANK ACCOUNT. It can be in reals, pounds sterling, dollars, whatever. Once a wire transfer arrives in Brazil it is then converted from the sending currency into reals normally by Banco Do Brasil, which acts as an agent for Banco Central(brazil's fed. reserve). They give you the current market rate of your currency at time of liquidation. Now is not the best time to be sending dollars or sterling to brazil...unfortunately for us. The GBP is currently sitting around 3.6:1

Anyway, I would absolutely NOT feel comfortable about allowing another business, entity, or a so-called "representative", send my investment money to Brazil. And not because of possible theft, but because of the reasons I have outlined in this thread concerning investors visas and being able to withdraw your investment when ready. Each individual investor MUST have record with Banco Central that he/she sent monies to Brazil! And one can't do that by paying ABC Company in England or Timbuktoo to send to Brazil for you.

GL

[PAUL-brasil]

Originally Posted by RalphJ

dee....as I've stated previously, what one wants to do is transfer their money to brazil via THEIR OWN BANK ACCOUNT. It can be in reals, pounds sterling, dollars, whatever. Once a wire transfer arrives in Brazil it is then converted from the sending currency into reals normally by Banco Do Brasil, which acts as an agent for Banco Central(brazil's fed. reserve). They give you the current market rate of your currency at time of liquidation.
Each individual investor MUST have record with Banco Central that he/she sent monies to Brazil! And one can't do that by paying ABC Company in England or Timbuktoo to send to Brazil for you.
GL

I agree Ralph i certainly cant see any logic in sending through a agent first, why would anyone want to risk that never mind the complex s that brazil would have with that like you mention. A couple of things though, I paid direct from my acc to the seller in Brazil via the Banco Do Brasil of cause for it to register, I couldnt send GBP though or Reais! a foreign buyer has to send for a property purchase to Brazil using a foreign currency so cant be done in Reais for it to accept the transfer, the only currencies the Banco DO Brasil would accept from a foreigner is USD and Euros. So had two currency changes to be charged at and the Banco did not give a generous exact exchange rate on the retail exchange at that day think it was nearer to a tourist exchange. So have things on that front improved lately through the Banco?
Regards
Paul

[RalphJ]

Originally Posted by PAUL-brasil

I agree Ralph i certainly cant see any logic in sending through a agent first, why would anyone want to risk that never mind the complex s that brazil would have with that like you mention. A couple of things though, I paid direct from my acc to the seller in Brazil via the Banco Do Brasil of cause for it to register, I couldnt send GBP though or Reais! a foreign buyer has to send for a property purchase to Brazil using a foreign currency so cant be done in Reais for it to accept the transfer, the only currencies the Banco DO Brasil would accept from a foreigner is USD and Euros. So had two currency changes to be charged at and the Banco did not give a generous exact exchange rate on the retail exchange at that day think it was nearer to a tourist exchange. So have things on that front improved lately through the Banco?
Regards
Paul

My three partners are british. They've ONLY sent British pounds here over the last 4 years. Banco do Brasil accepts ALL currencies as far as I'm aware of. I definitely know that they accept GBP's as the vast majority of our investment here has been made in GBP transfers.

[PAUL-brasil]

Hi Ralph,
Strange then that one, as i orginally sent in GBP then the Banco sent it back to me, my bank explained it was for that reason so i redid the transfer in USD then ok. Anyway while i have your helpful input, a few questions if ya dont mind to see if your answers match how i already believe things to be,

If you already own a property though a personal purchase as a foreigner can you use this later to gain visa and business acc as in place of the $50K, (if you have the resident partner eg 0.5% for the business at hand) ?

What are the advantage/disadvantage of owning property in your business name instead of individual ownership Capital Gains etc ?

In private name for a foreigner aswell the Ganho de Capital states that if you only have that 1 property after 5years the upto R$440K would be tax free (instead of the 15% then minus the each years depreciation), would this apply if property was in a business name?

How much should a lawyer in brasil charge roughly for organising the investment acc and visa?

Cheers
Paul

[infoberlin]

Originally Posted by RalphJ

Anyway, I would absolutely NOT feel comfortable about allowing another business, entity, or a so-called "representative", send my investment money to Brazil.
GL

I would not feel comfortable doing that with ANY country, not just Brazil.
What´s the point getting an "agent" sending funds on your behalf if you can do it online with a click of a mouse ?

[RalphJ]

Originally Posted by infoberlin

I would not feel comfortable doing that with ANY country, not just Brazil.
What´s the point getting an "agent" sending funds on your behalf if you can do it online with a click of a mouse ?

You can't send large amounts of monies internationally online, at the "click of a mouse" as you say. Large amounts of cash, normally in excess of $5,000 (american), must be sent via bank wire(swift), which one must go into his/her bank branch and send from there. Which in turn are sent to an intermediary bank then on to the destination country/bank. Transfers up to $5,000 can be sent internationally via companies such as Transfast, Western Union, moneygram, etc. in which Western Union has an online sending option that must be funded with ones credit card. But as I said, there's a max, normally $5,000 at the most.

As far as investors paying agents, well, I can understand why they do, it's typical when someone is buying a home in their country of residence, but they shouldn't be doing it when purchasing a property in Brazil unless that agent has a Brazilian based business and the transfer to the agents brazilian based business must be liquidated via a CONTRACT OF BUY/SELL.

[RalphJ]

Originally Posted by PAUL-brasil

Hi Ralph,
Strange then that one, as i orginally sent in GBP then the Banco sent it back to me, my bank explained it was for that reason so i redid the transfer in USD then ok. Anyway while i have your helpful input, a few questions if ya dont mind to see if your answers match how i already believe things to be,

If you already own a property though a personal purchase as a foreigner can you use this later to gain visa and business acc as in place of the $50K, (if you have the resident partner eg 0.5% for the business at hand) ?

What are the advantage/disadvantage of owning property in your business name instead of individual ownership Capital Gains etc ?

In private name for a foreigner aswell the Ganho de Capital states that if you only have that 1 property after 5years the upto R$440K would be tax free (instead of the 15% then minus the each years depreciation), would this apply if property was in a business name?

How much should a lawyer in brasil charge roughly for organising the investment acc and visa?

Cheers
Paul

Paul;

I can tell you that the bank's in England are absolutely TERRIBLE when it comes to transferring money to Brazil. In all fairness, Brazil is not typical in respect to most countries on how they go about liquidating funds. In Brazil, it doesn't matter to which bank you are sending to(destination bank), an incoming international transfer will first be received by either Banco do Brasil or *Bradesco(*only if the final destination bank is with Bradesco) for them to liquidate the monies and complete the beurocracy that Banco Central requires. After the beurocracy is completed Banco do Brasil then sends the liquidated funds onto the final recipient bank in "reais".

So, it can be confusing to some international wire departments in England when they see a transfer going to HSBC in Fortaleza, Brazil, with all the account details of an HSBC account, but a swift code for Banco do Brasil in Fortaleza. Many times in my experience the banks in England return the transfer to the branch, or they give the customer incorrect information, such as, "this bank doesn't receive GBP, you must send in dollars, euro's, etc", or they send it on to Brazil with information other than the information you provided.

I have probably liquidated 20+ transfers from England in the last 4 years and I would say that at least 18 of them had problems and those problems were initiated in England. It doesn't matter how many times you tell them, "don't think, just send it with the information given", they just can't seem to do it. Lloyd's TSB is the absolute WORST! Matter of fact, I absolutely refuse to receive transfers from Lloyd's anymore. I've spoken with managers at numerous branches as well as people at their international wire dep't. as well as people at their home office in Scotland....and they just can't seem to follow instructions and understand exactly how Brazil goes about liquidating international transfers.

HSBC also told us once that we couldn't send GBP to our account at Caixa Economica. And this after we had already sent hundreds of thousands of pounds to our account at Caixa Economica. What they didn't understand, once again like most, is that Banco do Brasil does the liquidation independant of what the final destination bank may be. So, account details must be for the recipient bank, but the swift code must be for Banco do Brasil in the city to which you are sending. And to get people at your branch, then their wire dept. to understand this really seems to be rocket science to most of these folks.

If you already own a property though a personal purchase as a foreigner can you use this later to gain visa and business acc as in place of the $50K, (if you have the resident partner eg 0.5% for the business at hand) ?

It depends. How did you purchase the property? How were the funds sent? Were they sent to Brazil by you? How were they liquidated? What does Banco Central see in their system in relation to this purchase?

What are the advantage/disadvantage of owning property in your business name instead of individual ownership Capital Gains etc ?

That's a good question. And since we've yet to sell any of our assets here I'm not sure of the answer at this moment. But I'll get it for you tomorrow from our accountant and get back with you.

In private name for a foreigner aswell the Ganho de Capital states that if you only have that 1 property after 5years the upto R$440K would be tax free (instead of the 15% then minus the each years depreciation), would this apply if property was in a business name?

I'm 99% sure it does...but let me confirm this tomorrow as well.

How much should a lawyer in brasil charge roughly for organising the investment acc and visa?

To open a business you should be able to do this with an accountant for 1,000 reais at the most...you can even do it a little cheaper depending on the accountant. Our accountant, whom is very good and knows a lot of people, which unfortunately here in Brazil the most valuable commodity is "knowing people", charges us 1,000 reais to open a business. But we normally have it opened in two weeks max...which is fast for here.

As far as hiring a lawyer to get your investors visa I just paid a lawyer that specializes in this area, and she got a portuguese investor friend of mine his, 3,500 reais per person, and I'm getting two of them for my partners.