TURTLE BAY ECO- What do you think?

[ady1231]

Originally Posted by PAUL-brasil

Hi Andy
No Ive not look into turtle bay as buying land at the moment is not top of my agenda. From what you say seems a better deal, but like as your trying to find out here maybe Turtle bay is near prime areas and Coconut is not. If I go up to Flexires beach over the next month I ll give you the heads up about it. I also have a good few contacts over there now too so Ill ask about the place for you.
But like some of us say, I do think its much better for you to maybe invest £2K on 2 visits here to learn about the places, compare, get a real feel of things, ask a **** load of questions and find out as much as you can, make some good contacts yourself along the way and have a great time doing it like I did. Then you might find that you can then save yourself money in the long run!

Hi Paul;

Do you know any Law firm to suggest?

[redangel7861]

I've also looked at Turtle bay. I've spoken to various agents and also spoke to the developer today. I had various issues regarding CGT, Flip costs, Legal Costs, Escro Costs, Community charge for not building and agency costs towards selling the land. I stated that this was simply a land investment and there were to many costs associated with flipping the land. Here is my interpreation of the costs:

1. CGT - only payable if you flip the property once is has been fully registered in your name i.e. once you have made the final payment of 25% on the land - this will be in late 2010;

2. Filp charge of £1,200 per plot you can pass onto the party you are selling to;

3. Legal costs of £1,100 - You are paying this to attain a tax number in Brazil. I'm sure these costs can be reduced if you apply for a number yourself;

4. Escro charge £350+ VAT - this you have to pay


5. Community Charge - Community won't be established until 2012. Surely would have filpped the land by this time;

6. Agency costs for selling cost vary from 2.5% to 5% - this can be negotiated.

Anyone elso looking to buy on Turtle bay - I'm not looking to make a move until I get written confirmation that David LLoyd have signed. Again there are ways of reducing the costs of owning a plot, if not then there are to many associated costs in my opinion.

TURTLE Bay development seems to be of a higher quality than proposed other resorts in the area. With David LLoyd on board it adds to the appeal of this development. What kind of capital gains would people envisage on this type of land deal, TAKING INTO ACCOUNT THAT DAVID LLOYD ARE NOW ON BOARD?

Other opinions welcome.

[PAUL-brasil]

Originally Posted by ady1231

Hi Paul;

Do you know any Law firm to suggest?

Hi Andy

Yes I do, I ve spoken to quite a few including some which as been mentioned to you in another thread, which are very expensive because they normally just forward the work to a local law firm who operates in that area, take their bill then add 30-40%. I ve actually met Nabas in London, let me just simply say that I didnt want to use them. I will forward you some big but local Law firms from Fortaleza in a PM.

[wolfgang]

Red Angel,
A reasonable analysis though there are additional costs involved.Buyers would also need to budget for power of attorney,notary and transfer costs.Most assume these are covered in legal fee quotes-the reality is they are not.
You also need to ask yourself who exactly it is you will flip to and what factors are likely to generate gains.
It would not be prudent to rely upon selling on to a local -at an average COST price of 30,000 uk pounds it will be beyond their means and for the few that can afford it,why would they wish to buy into a 99% European community?
The majority of Brazilians who visit Bahia spend their time in Recife, Salvador,whilst the affluent travel to Maceio and Trancoco,not Belmonte.
Fundemantally therefore that leaves the International aftersales market and they will be taking the short direct flights to Fortaleza and Natal,both of which are over a 1,000 miles closer to Europe.The resort in not even near a regional airport, let alone an International one-a key demand and capital appreciation influencing factor in the equation.
For me,Turtle Bay is a great concept in the wrong location.

[RalphJ]

3. Legal costs of £1,100 - You are paying this to attain a tax number in Brazil. I'm sure these costs can be reduced if you apply for a number yourself;

LOL....yeah, they sure can be reduced! Ya know how much it costs to get a CPF number here in Brazil???


Less than 15 REAIS!!!!!

That's a fiver!


LOL.....oh brother.

[michaelbush]

Like lambs to the slaughter!!! Living here in Brasil like you Ralph, it never fails to amaze me how difficult it is to give free advice! I think the current cost of a CPF is 5R$, plus the hours of waiting your turn to deposit your application in the Receita Federal. Yes, if you cannot speak the language, or do not investigate the subject, you are going to get ripped off by international lawyers to do the work for you. The main problem is that people buy over the internet, almost like buying a CD from Amazon! They need to visit Brasil, and talk to people here who are not looking to profit from their knowledge, rather looking to protect their countrymen from unscrupulous people.

[wolfgang]

A quote of £1,100 is not an unreasonable legal fee if it also includes,background checks,title ,permit and licence verification,poa,etc.
The consensus of advice from those based in Brazil is to use a Brazilian solicitor as it is cheaper and all the International law firms simply subcontract to a local anyway.
This however overlooks an important factor-namely that few legal practices in Brazil offer any form of insurance without having to pay additional fees.
So basically,in the event of incorrect advice being provided there is no recourse.
Conversely,a reputable International firm will often issue a certificate of title so investors will receive a guarantee confirming tax,ownership,permissions etc.
A U.K Law firm is also regulated by the Law Society and possesses professional indemnity -well worth paying the extra money imho when making an investment in the tens of thousand ££'s.

[RalphJ]

Originally Posted by wolfgang

A quote of £1,100 is not an unreasonable legal fee if it also includes,background checks,title ,permit and licence verification,poa,etc.
The consensus of advice from those based in Brazil is to use a Brazilian solicitor as it is cheaper and all the International law firms simply subcontract to a local anyway.
This however overlooks an important factor-namely that few legal practices in Brazil offer any form of insurance without having to pay additional fees.
So basically,in the event of incorrect advice being provided there is no recourse.
Conversely,a reputable International firm will often issue a certificate of title so investors will receive a guarantee confirming tax,ownership,permissions etc.
A U.K Law firm is also regulated by the Law Society and possesses professional indemnity -well worth paying the extra money imho when making an investment in the tens of thousand ££'s.

You're assuming quite a lot wolfgang. And I can tell you from experience, if one assumes that a lawyer here in Brazil is going to perform the same activities that a lawyer in the U.K. or the U.S. performs, well, it normally just ain't so. And, if one assumes that a U.K. lawyer or a U.S. lawyer is familiar with everything that needs to be done here in Brazil to ensure "due deligence", such as the property is "free and clear" in respect to tax debts, employee debts, debts to vendors, in the last two cases when buying a brazilian business or existing entity, well, I've also discovered that normally it just ain't so.

Investors need to have everything spelled out in black and white...especially when paying "legal fees". What does the legal fee being paid entail? Title check? Property tax (IPTU) check? Other business debts accrued in the case of buying or investing in an existing entity or brazilian business? CPF card?

In this instance this poster claimed that this 1,100 POUND fee, which is today around 3,300 reais, is for obtaining a "tax number". That's simply a CPF number which can be obtained by any old Joe by simply going to a government bank, such as Banco do Brasil or Caixa Economica, filling out some paperwork, and then taking this paperwork to Receipta Federal. A CPF card can be achieved, at least the CPF number, in a matter of a few hours and as Mike and myself have previously stated, for FIVE pounds or less....not 1,100!

This was/is also a charge that infamous con-artists here in Brazil have used and do use to con people and grossly overcharge them for their services here in Brazil.

[wolfgang]

Hello Ralph,
I am on very safe ground in assuming that the £1,100 quoted covers more than just obtaining a CPF number.
In fact it is not even an assumption at all.The International Law firm representing Turtle Bay is IPLC based out of Covent Garden in London.They are a reputable U.K. top tier firm with 20 years experience and whilst i agree that many organisations overcharge for very simple tasks which in most instances can be done by the individual,this is not the case in this instance and i stand by my original statement that their quote is a reasonable one-particularly as there will be no VAT to pay.
For Legalex,Manzanares etc who now have a minimum fee of 1,500 Euros (£1,119) VAT will be payable in addition.

[redangel7861]

WolfGang.

You are correct in assuming the legal costs will cover more than attaining the relevant tax number.

You seem negative on TB. With regards to the local Airport is it not already receiveing international flights from many destinations in Europe???

Also the premium paid takes into account that TB the first resort of it's type in the area, i.e. planning approved and International company with resorts in Dubai, Cyprus (David LLoyd) now signed up to manage this resort. The resort will also be finished to European standards. Prices will be increased by the developer to the tune of 30% in 2008 and that's not taking into account the increase in the price of land.

With regards to resale, are not the ever increasing affluent Brazilians making this area a more popular holiday destination. We also need to take into account that the resort will be finished to European standards. A quality product will always attract the rich. In my opinion, there is a lot of rubbish for sale in Brazil, and this seems like one of the more quality developments.

Again as ever, comments welcome.